Marc Pitman: Welcome to the Concord Leaders Podcast. I’m Marc Pitman, the CEO of the Concord Leadership Group. Today our guest is Monroe Free. He’s the President and CEO of Habitat for Humanity of Greenville County. Monroe, I am so glad you’re on the call. Thanks for joining us.

Monroe Free: Well, thanks for having me, Marc. It’s always fun to talk to you, and glad to be able to do this podcast with you.

Marc Pitman: Well, I always learn things from you, whether it’s your experience running the — was it Rescue Mission?

Monroe Free: Right.

Marc Pitman: In Chattanooga?

Monroe Free: Yeah, well, not Chattanooga — Knoxville, Tennessee.

Marc Pitman: Oops, sorry.

Monroe Free: I’ve been there for 17 years.

Marc Pitman: Well, right, Tennesseans, I apologize if I created any offense, but for everyone else, it was kind of geographically close. Well, let me ask you this — and you did that for 17 years, I know you did consulting, you’ve been at Habitat for Humanity of Greenville County for a while too. What do you find most enjoyable about leading?

Monroe Free: Well, that’s a great question — what’s most enjoyable about leading. For me, you get to accomplish things, and you get to accomplish meaningful things, and you get to be part of doing really important work in the world. I get to go to bed every night knowing that the organization I’m a part of has made a difference in the world, made a difference in some people’s lives. And that’s a whole lot of fun. And in particular with leadership, when you can pull a group together — I’m a big team sport guy — and you pull a team together and you get those folks working together, you accomplish something bigger than any of you could accomplish individually. That’s pretty cool stuff.

Marc Pitman: What got you into leadership in the first place? Were you one of those people that everybody — you always rose to the top of leadership situations, or how did that work?

Monroe Free: Well, you know, I got into leadership basically because I had some ideas about how to help people, and the only way I could get them institutionalized was to become the leader. And when I looked back — I was a team sport guy, I was a quarterback on the football team, I was the catcher on the baseball team — I was in leadership positions. I didn’t think about it as such at the time, but that’s what I did. So it probably had something to do with natural shifting also. But when I started to work at a rescue mission in Pensacola, Florida, back in the early ’80s, I really started to say, “Gosh, maybe this would make a difference, maybe that would make a difference.” But I didn’t have the authority to get those ideas actualized. And so I needed to be in leadership to do that. That’s how I pursued leadership. That’s why I appreciate leadership.

Marc Pitman: That’s great. Well, we all know that leadership doesn’t always work out the way we expected it to. So was there a time that you tried something that didn’t work out?

Monroe Free: Oh, there’s been a bunch of times I tried things that didn’t work out. I’m pretty much an expert at figuring out things that don’t work. So the thing that I think, when I look back on my career over 30 years, that I really wish I had done differently — I remember we had a medical dental clinic at the rescue mission in Knoxville, and it was run by volunteers. We were trying to get some new programs started, and we needed to save money, et cetera. So I thought, well, the health department’s right down the street, and we can send folks to the health department and they can get services there. We really don’t need this medical dental clinic. So we closed it. And what happened was we saw very quickly that health outcomes deteriorated among our population, our homeless population. And I realized that the mistake I made was that it was the relationships that brought people through our health and dental clinic — they didn’t have those relationships in a big, large organization like the health department. So they didn’t go there for care — they just opted out of care. That was one I really, really regret. It was a real bad move. But there have been lots of them, some big, some small. When you’re in leadership, you have to be trying new things, and when you try new things, not everything works.

Marc Pitman: That is so true — the relationships, that’s so interesting, that you looked at the outcomes, but it was the relationships that mattered. Wow.

Monroe Free: Yep.

Marc Pitman: Okay, I’m going to do something — there’s a lot of, it’s really crackling, like something’s rubbing across the speaker. Are you moving when you’re talking?

Monroe Free: Maybe, and I just don’t realize it.

Marc Pitman: Okay, never mind — if you’re not, then we can’t fix it, and that’s fine, I’ll just tell the producer. But I just wanted to check, because you’re giving really good content. All right, so — that is a lot better. Okay, but it went back to where it was. Okay, could we try the mistake question again? All right, I’m just going to do a clap so I can find this spot in editing.

Marc Pitman: Well, leadership doesn’t always go the way we expect it to go. So was there a time that you tried something and it didn’t work out the way you expected?

Monroe Free: Well, there are a lot of times like that — leadership, you have to make decisions and choices, and sometimes those choices don’t turn out right, or the way you planned anyway. And the one I remember most in my career was in Knoxville, Tennessee, where I was running a homeless ministry. We had a medical dental clinic, and we were trying to start some new programs, so we needed to find some money in some places. I knew that the health department was not too far from us, and I knew they provided medical services. So I decided that what we needed to do was close the medical and dental clinic and just refer people to the health department. That turned out to not work very well. We saw outcomes — health outcomes with our clients — deteriorate, and we saw problems there. What we found was that people weren’t going to the health department, even though we were referring them there. It turned out the problem was that they didn’t have relationships at the health department like they had with us. So they didn’t trust the department, they didn’t go there and get services. And with us, they had relationships — they were built in, because they were staying overnight with us, they were eating meals with us. We knew them, they knew us. And those relationships drove them to come to us for health care. And the outcome suffered when we told them, “No, you go to the health department.” I really wish that had gone differently, or feel badly about that. But that’s just one — there have been multiple times in my career where we’ve made just the wrong decisions about things, and you have to take responsibility for those and overcome them. But that’s part of being in leadership.

Marc Pitman: Well, and that’s the thing I think that’s so scary for so many of us — that you know it’s possible you’re going to make the wrong decision. And so often our environments aren’t forgiving for that, or they don’t feel like they are. So are there things you’ve done to help — like, did you restart that program when you realized it was a relationship issue, or are there other things you found to help you?

Monroe Free: Well, when we closed it down, no, we weren’t able to restart it, because we didn’t have the doctors and nurses who had helped us — they moved on. We weren’t able to restart it. It took us a while to get the information together that the health outcomes were deteriorating, and by then, the people who had helped us had moved on. We were able, a little bit later, to help another organization start a dental clinic, but we were not able to get ours started again. Now, we did introduce some things to help build relationships at the health department, which probably helped some — in fact, I know it helped some. Some of our caseworkers started taking people through the health department, those kinds of things. But I still wish I had done it differently.

Marc Pitman: Wow. So what are some things — if people are listening to this, they’re probably resonating with you, that they love being able to be part of something bigger than themselves, going to bed knowing they’ve made the world better for families and others. Is there a strategy or a tip or something you’d recommend people do today, if they did nothing else in their leadership role?

Monroe Free: I’m sorry, Marc, can you ask that question again? I didn’t quite get it.

Marc Pitman: Yes, I’m going to just — all right, hold on. We’re at 10 minutes and 50 seconds. So, you’ve brought so much into this conversation about being able to do something bigger than just one person, having a feeling like you’ve contributed to the world. You love that. And things don’t always go right. People who are listening are probably resonating with you. Is there something you’d recommend they do today, if they were to do nothing else, to grow as a leader? Would there be a tip, a strategy, or a practice you think they should investigate?

Monroe Free: Yeah, that’s a great question. And I think the way I would answer that is: listen. I think the key to leadership is listening — to the clients you serve, to the staff who are on the front lines, to other service providers, the peer groups, to the community at large. My experience of leadership — we always talk about the vision, and having the leader have the vision. We talk about it like the vision sits on some holy mountain and it’s imparted to him, kind of like Moses and the Ten Commandments. That’s not my experience at all. My experience is that as you listen, it becomes clear. As you ask the questions, as you listen to people, it just becomes apparent what you ought to do, what direction you ought to take, how things ought to move. So my real advice to people in leadership is to clean your ears at every place you can. Reading good books is another good place to listen. But just listening is the key. And for me — I’m certainly not the smartest guy around, but if I hear the right answer long enough, often enough, I’m inclined to do it.

Marc Pitman: That’s awesome. And I think that’s probably one of the more vulnerable places for leaders, because so often, growing through our careers, having the right answer was what got us promoted. So turning around and asking the right questions can feel like we’re somehow shirking our responsibility. But thanks for the reminder that that’s what leadership is.

Monroe Free: That’s exactly right. The right leaders ask great questions.

Marc Pitman: I think so — like you just asked right there. Where can people find out more about your work and the work of Habitat?

Monroe Free: Well, you can certainly go to our website — www.habitatgreenville.org is probably the best way to go and find out about us, and come join us and see if we can make a difference through home ownership for families with low incomes.

Marc Pitman: That sounds great. Thanks so much for being here. I know people are going to want to listen to this and all the other episodes, so you can find them all at concordleadershipgroup.com/podcasts. And until next time, remember that healthy organizations start with healthy leaders.