Marc Pitman: Welcome to the Concord Leaders Podcast. I’m Marc Pitman, the CEO of the Concord Leadership Group, helping leaders navigate through trying and really important times. Today our guest is Amy Sample Ward. She’s the CEO of NTEN. Amy, I am so thrilled to have you here.

Amy Sample Ward: Thanks. I’m excited to join and get to answer these questions that I know you’ll likely be coming with, around leadership in a time that I think folks are really talking about leadership in new ways.

Marc Pitman: It is — yeah, that’s a really well-put way to describe the time we’re in. Before we get into the rest of the conversation, what does NTEN stand for, or what — not necessarily stand for — what is it, what do you do with NTEN, for the people that don’t know?

Amy Sample Ward: No worries — since we don’t use NTEN as an acronym, we always love when people ask what NTEN stands for, because we can just talk about our values. And people always listen and think, “Well, that didn’t spell N-T-E-N, I don’t know what you’re saying.” NTEN — we’re a nonprofit, and our mission is to make sure that all other nonprofits are able to use technology strategically and in racially equitable ways, so that they’re better able and more effective at meeting their community needs and meeting their missions.

Marc Pitman: I just want to cheer. That’s awesome. Very cool. Who wouldn’t want that?

Amy Sample Ward: I mean, it’s an interesting time for NTEN, honestly. We were founded in 2000, so we’re now 20 — almost a full adult organization, comparing it to the age of people. And of course, the way our mission shows up in the world has looked very different over these 20 years, right? When we were founded, every nonprofit staff person in an organization didn’t even necessarily have a computer.

Marc Pitman: Wow.

Amy Sample Ward: And now, [laughs] now with a global pandemic, folks are saying, “How do we get every single staff person to work remotely from home, to migrate their programs and service delivery into these online tools?” What NTEN does, our mission has always been the same, but the way that exists in the sector is, I think, a really cool evolution.

Marc Pitman: That is fascinating. And I love the way you worded that — the way our mission shows up in the world — because there’s this mission, but it has to show up in the world to be relevant and meet the needs of folks. Wow, that’s really cool. So how long have you been there as the CEO, and what do you love about leading?

Amy Sample Ward: I think that today, the day we’re recording this in June, is like exactly my seven-year mark as CEO.

Marc Pitman: Congratulations.

Amy Sample Ward: Thank you. I don’t know how seven years happened, but —

Marc Pitman: I understand that.

Amy Sample Ward: My calendar shows that they have, so.

Marc Pitman: That’s really cool. So, what do you love, what do you enjoy about leading here and other places you’ve led?

Amy Sample Ward: You know, my background is less in some sort of management or business training and more in community organizing. So my beliefs about what leading means come from the community organizing world. And that means what I really love about getting to, quote-unquote, be the leader, be the CEO of the organization, is that my job is to marshal resources — to connect people with the resources or the other people they need — to make sure staff are best positioned to be successful, that our community is best supported as that changes, as those needs change over time. So it’s kind of like getting to be the catalyst, you know? And I think that’s such an exciting role. I also think that leadership isn’t something that automatically is just the CEO’s job, or even gets to be the CEO’s job. I think the CEO needs to operate as a leader, not that they are a leader — the leader. And I think all of your staff should be supported in leading in their roles, right? It doesn’t make sense that the one person, by title, at the top of the organization, would lead everything. And if we don’t acknowledge that and really endorse that, I don’t think we set our staff up to be really successful in their own jobs. Instead, we reinforce this very tired, very patriarchal, very white-dominant idea that the thing every staff person should want is to be the CEO. And I don’t think that’s true. I don’t think lots of people necessarily want to be the CEO — they just want to get to be really good at what they do. And the way I think we do that is by endorsing that they are leaders all across the organization.

Marc Pitman: Wow, that is so true. I don’t know if you’ve experienced this, but for me — I haven’t put it that articulately — but when I trusted people with responsibility over the roles or tasks they’d taken on, they were really shocked. They were waiting for the other shoe to fall, for retribution or micromanaging. Like, “Do I really get to have this space? Do you really trust me that much?” But it was fun to watch them either rise to the occasion or not — the “not” wasn’t really as fun. But the rising to the occasion, it was fun to see them flourish and try new things and learn they didn’t necessarily have to have all the answers when they stepped out into something.

Amy Sample Ward: That’s fascinating. What a great way of looking at leadership.

Marc Pitman: Well, I know that, as we know as leaders, things don’t always go as planned. We’re in the middle of a pandemic and righteous social indignation going on around our country and around the world, and those weren’t things people necessarily planned either. So was there a time when you tried something or implemented something and it didn’t work?

Amy Sample Ward: Yeah, you know, I want to share something that isn’t — because of course my very immediate response, when I get this question, is like, “Do you want me to just share my screen and show you all the things I have tried that didn’t go quite right?” But I know that’s not necessarily the point here — the point is not to air my change log, but instead to say, I think in reflection on this topic, the times where I really miss the mark the biggest are the times where I knowingly ignore my gut. And a time that comes up for me about that was this very challenging moment — I had been out on parental leave from the birth of my child, and two senior staff had left the organization, and trying to both honor the real need to be on leave and the administrative need of having an organization that’s fully staffed and can keep going so that I can be on leave, and trying to manage what the possibilities are — it was not the right moment, but along with other staff, we created a staffing plan that kind of changed the job structure and the allocation of tasks in a way that, of course, in reflection, I know — but at the time, I also knowingly ignored my gut about it. I should have known, like, “Hey, what you’re doing — you know this isn’t right.” But I still moved forward with, “Well, let’s restructure this position, let’s put someone in this spot.” And you know what, we don’t have that staffing structure today. We don’t even have those staff today, because they were not necessarily set up to succeed. The organization wasn’t set up to engage with staff in those positions in the correct way. And there were lots of people that were part of that whole process of scoping and designing and hiring and managing and reporting to. And the whole process of that doesn’t change that I was the CEO — those decisions still fall to me. And I think that was a hard thing, because it has lots of external impact, but it doesn’t feel as prominent an example to community members, where you’d say, “Oh, we tried this program and it failed,” right, or “we ran this campaign and it didn’t go anywhere.” But I really focus so much of my attention, and late-night thinking, on the internal pieces. So it really stands out to me as a moment where we went in a direction, and it wasn’t the right direction, of designing the staffing structure of the organization — and how even just one position can really throw things off.

Marc Pitman: Yeah. Wow. To have the responsiveness to be able to think about the positions and realize that the position serves the organization, not the organization serves a certain position set up. Wow. Just out of curiosity, have you figured out ways, as you’ve been mentoring leaders and raising up leaders — either that you’ve employed, or with people you work with in the greater sector — are there ways you’ve helped people pay attention to those nudges?

Amy Sample Ward: To the gut, I mean?

Marc Pitman: The gut, yeah.

Amy Sample Ward: Yeah, I think honestly the first piece I always share with folks in conversation is just really inviting yourself to get to listen to your gut. I think it’s the strongest tool any person has, let alone any leader — but especially for basically anyone that’s not a straight, cis, white dude. Any other identity from there, we’re taught not to listen to our gut, that we are in so many ways flawed, right? And I think just dispelling that, and just hitting a giant unsubscribe from society’s message about that, and saying, “No, my gut is really well-tuned — do you know how many experiences I have had?” Knowing that, and getting to honor that in yourself, I think is really huge, because I think everybody already has it. It’s just that we’re out of practice, or out of belief that we do have it, and that we get to listen to our gut and let it guide us in these situations.

Marc Pitman: Well, in the ancient wisdom tradition, there are three centers of intelligence — head, heart, and gut.

Amy Sample Ward: Yeah.

Marc Pitman: Our culture is a lot head, and there’s an acceptance in certain areas of heart, but I think gut gets really shortchanged, at least in our Western world.

Amy Sample Ward: Yes, totally.

Marc Pitman: That is so exciting to hear. I call it the surprising gift of doubt — that’s why I asked you about that. That’s really cool. Well, we’ve blown through our time — we could talk for a long time, and I love that about you and your experiences. But as we come to the close of this discussion, is there a tool or something you’d recommend leaders consider doing — a tool they look into, or an action they take to grow themselves?

Amy Sample Ward: I mean, I don’t know how there could be anything more pressing for folks than examining their participation, actively working on dismantling that within themselves, within their organizations, within their families, within any space they occupy. And it’s not only because we are marching in the streets every evening saying that change needs to happen — even if that wasn’t happening, even if we were not marching in the streets, the reality is, I don’t think there’s anything more damaging to the potential impact of nonprofits, of businesses — it’s the thing holding back our world. And as leaders, y’all are the ones in those positions of really incredible power. So taking on that work of dismantling white supremacy, owning anti-racism as something that is an active piece of your life, I think would be huge.

Marc Pitman: Yeah, I used to feel smug, up until just a couple years ago, truth be told, in my anti-apartheid stance, and thinking about how South Africa was — thinking, talking to people from South Africa, “How could you have lived in such a racist society?” And it’s only been in the last few years where I’ve really come to a new awareness of how deeply steeped into our culture this is. So, yeah. Wow. Thank you, Amy. Oh my goodness, thank you so much for being here, thanks for that challenge and charge, and I appreciate the work that you’re doing in the nonprofit sector — so many of my clients and friends benefit from not just the work that you do and the connections that you make, but the friendships that they have.

Amy Sample Ward: Yeah, just online — the community is so special that way. It’s truly everyone in relationship, making change. I’m just so privileged to be here. Thank you.

Marc Pitman: That is awesome. Where can people find more about NTEN?

Amy Sample Ward: Sure, nten.org — N-T-E-N dot O-R-G online — and you can join online groups there. You can start connecting with folks all across the sector, you can get resources, we’ve got free research, we have professional certificates. Whatever you need is at the website, including my email and everything else.

Marc Pitman: Wonderful. Well, thanks so much. And I know, if you want to listen to this again, you can find this in your favorite podcatcher, or go to concordleadershipgroup.com/podcasts, with an S, and see this and all the other episodes of the Concord Leaders Podcast. If you’re listening to this on some sort of podcast app, please definitely rate us and review us — that helps other people find us as well. Until next time, remember, healthy organizations start with healthy leaders.